Flibbertigibbet

Romantic Rehash

A couple of weekends ago, The Cuban (Did I mention him before? I was dating a guy I refer to as The Cuban.) dropped me an email and said he wanted to hang out. Quite against my better judgment, I told him that I would give a go at being his friend.

I think that if you were serious about a relationship, it is next to impossible, if not impossible, to make a successful friendship out of it. Some people do it and do it often. I have no idea how because it makes no sense to me and I've never ever been able to make it work.

Well, The Cuban and I (so called because he is actually Cuban. Well, he's American, but first generation from some Cubans.) went to dinner and we had a fun time.

So, he invited me out to drinks with him and his best friend.

When we dated, The Cuban and I had a great time. We laughed a lot. We did fun things. We got along great. And I met his friends and they all loved me, especially his best friend. So, going out for drinks with them was not a weird request.

So, I went.

Weeeellllll, one thing led to another and we wound up talking about getting back together.

Why did we break up in the first place? Because he's a Christian. I always check before going out with someone or on the first date to make sure they don't believe in any hoobie-joobie mumbo jumbo garbage. I do not have time for it in my life.

Well, The Cuban led me to believe, perhaps unintentionally, that he was agnostic. I will grudgingly accept an agnostic if all other factors are in place. But he's not agnostic. The man is Catholic. He just doesn't go to Church.

*SIGH*

I didn't really figure this out until after we dated for about a month and a half.

I know, you're thinking, "How do you miss a crucifix around someone's neck for SIX weeks?"

I didn't miss it. He never took it off! But when I asked him if he believed in God, he responded saying that he isn't religious. When I asked him why he wears a replica of a corpse affixed to an ancient execution device, he told me it was a family thing. I don't talk about religion very much and I also tend to be rather trusting of people to be forthright with things, so I didn't probe very much.

But it bugged me and I did wind up asking more questions and he admitted that he is Christian.

I dated him for a little while longer after that, but decided I couldn't take it.

He's a nice guy. We get along great, but there's more to a relationship than laughs and physical attraction.

I started worrying about our kids. What will they think when one daddy tells them not to believe in made-up magic crap and the other one is hanging corpses around their necks and flinging water in their faces?

An it's merely my own restraint and a sense of common courtesy that keeps me from openly deriding people's religions every time I encounter it. I work with a lot of Jews and Catholics, too, so I'm VERY restrained.

As I told another friend of mine, when times get hard, I don't want a man who will fall to his knees and pray, I want a man who will stand up for himself and kick some ass.

And forget the hard times. What about the good times? How can I possibly talk to a Christian about some esoteric point of science or economics or ethics or epistemology when I can't even trust his intellectual methodology? It makes no sense! Physicists don't call up L. Ron Hubbard (Yes, I know he's dead.) to see what he thinks of their experiment results.

So, that's why I won't date Christians and why I broke up with The Cuban.

Well, when I saw him again, I remembered all the things I enjoyed about him, but the inner conflict came back. How can I date someone with a fundamentally different view of reality? What is the best possible outcome for a relationship like that?

Well, I concluded that I can't. So, last night, via IM we got into it again and this time it's over for good, I think.

If you're at all interested, an excerpt from our chat appears in the extended entry.

The Cuban: you should meet mommy dearest
The Cuban: she's very uncoventional

Flibby: heh heh heh... I can imagine.

The Cuban: hahhahaha... she asked me over breakfast the other day... "there is no chance of you and [his boyfriend before me] getting back together now.. is there"
The Cuban: i said... of course not
The Cuban: she said good... thank god

Flibby: Ha!
Flibby: I don't know anything about Mr. [boyfriend before me], but I can't imagine how she'd be happy with you dating a heathen like me!

The Cuban: oh she wont care about that
The Cuban: she's all about me being happy

Flibby: grrr...

The Cuban: hahhahahhaha
The Cuban: what?

Flibby: *sigh*
Flibby: I don't want to get into it right now.

The Cuban: okay... you dont have to
The Cuban: i dont think youre a heathen

Flibby: I'm perfectly godless.

The Cuban: so
The Cuban: youre Flibby
The Cuban: youre belief system makes part of who you are
The Cuban: and i like who you are
The Cuban: everything is not black and white

Flibby: Yes, it is.
Flibby: Everything is exactly what it is and nothing else.

The Cuban: i can see why you would say that
The Cuban: but what you dont take into account is
The Cuban: human emotion

Flibby: Those are what they are, too.
Flibby: And nothing else.

The Cuban: so basically... would you not date me just because i was christian?

Flibby: If I had known you were Christian before, no, I wouldn't have dated you.
Flibby: It's not because I don't think Christians can't be nice, sweet, charming, fun people.
Flibby: It's because the thought processes involved with accepting faith as sufficient for belief are inherently risky and untrustworthy.
Flibby: It's a recipe for disaster.

The Cuban: i disagree

Flibby: Regardless, that's why I avoid dating Christians.

The Cuban: i am who i am... if i were aethiest i would still be the same person

Flibby: You would be called [The Cuban], but in order for you to be atheist, you would have to have a different methodology for approaching life.

The Cuban: i dont think so
The Cuban: i think youre wrong there... perhaps with other yes but with me no
The Cuban: ive never been a religious person

Flibby: In order for that to be true, you would be telling me that you're not just "not religious" but that you're a complete hipocrite about your faith.
Flibby: That it's totally meaningless.
Flibby: Which begs the question of why you claim it at all.

The Cuban: religious in the sense of the question of the church
The Cuban: but
The Cuban: really if this all comes down to the fact that i believe in a higher power whether or not it affect my day to day life then yes i do, its not something that i can explain
The Cuban: and i think if i were to make you happy then it wouldnt matter

Flibby: The problem is that in order to make me completely happy, it matters.
Flibby: I need to be able to experience the widest possible range of human experience in love.
Flibby: To have a conflict on such a fundamental level excludes part of that experience.
Flibby: I'm not talking about a disagreement about favorite television shows or a grocery store. I'm talking about on the way you and I view existence and our places in it.
Flibby: Like you saying things aren't black and white.
Flibby: I say they are.
Flibby: Regardless of who is right on that question, that's a pretty fundamental conflict.
Flibby: And to project a relationship into the future that has that level of disagreement requires acknowledging a significant risk of failure.

The Cuban: why not risk the failure
The Cuban: i would risk it

Flibby: Nearly everything involves a risk of failure.
Flibby: The probability of risk in this case is excessive, though.

The Cuban: isnt it worth it?

Flibby: No.
Flibby: The best result possible is a less than completely satisfying relationship.
Flibby: The worst result is a serious heart break.
Flibby: The math just doesn't make sense.
Flibby: It was very difficult for me to break it off with you, but it's these reasons that I just couldn't ignore.
Flibby: It's difficult, though, because I do enjoy you so much.

The Cuban: all i know is that i want to be with you... if we are talking about heartache.. well it hurts not having you around now so what is the difference later.. id rather try and fail then not try at all

Flibby: Because it would hurt more later. It would be even more difficult later.
Flibby: I mean, look at your past relaitonships...
Flibby: They started out with all hope, love, and joy
Flibby: And that was excellent.

The Cuban: i look at this one

Flibby: But the ending...

The Cuban: and what i see

The Cuban: is that months later

Flibby: The endings are so hard.

The Cuban: i still think of you
The Cuban: i still want to be with you
The Cuban: and if its so hard to end it then why end it... there must be a middle ground

Flibby: A middle ground?
Flibby: Between breaking up and being together?
Flibby: Either people are together or they aren't.
Flibby: You can't stay in the "dating" phase indefinitely.
Flibby: And I'm not really good at fuck buddies.

The Cuban: no not htere
The Cuban: i dont want a fuck buddy

Flibby: Well, there's friends.

The Cuban: i mean that there are exceptions we make for people we love

Flibby: And downgrading relationships is very, very hard.

The Cuban: i cant be your friend
The Cuban: because i just want to hold your hand

Flibby: I know the feeling.

The Cuban: and i want to kiss you

Flibby: It would be easier to be broken up if we had broken up about something a little less abstract.

The Cuban: i want to give it a shot
The Cuban: i mean jesus... i dont listen to patsy cline cause i think of you.. still
The Cuban: ive gone on too many dates and i dont want to be with them
The Cuban: so why not just try

Flibby: Because it will fail. It will end.
Flibby: It will only be more frustrating.

The Cuban: sweetheart

Flibby: It will get more an more difficult.

The Cuban: its frustrating now
The Cuban: and do you really think it will be more difficult

Flibby: Yes.

The Cuban: honestly

Flibby: Because I ended it once.
Flibby: It will be more difficult a second time.
Flibby: I've been down this road before.
Flibby: For me to date someone I know believes in God is a challenge to my personal integrity.
Flibby: I feel like a hypocrit.
Flibby: I feel like a liar.

The Cuban: you know what i think
The Cuban: i think you feel the same
The Cuban: about me
The Cuban: as i do for you
The Cuban: so fuck it
The Cuban: why not be happy
The Cuban: and frolic in the snow in central park
The Cuban: in the end of the day
The Cuban: i would have rather had that then nothing
The Cuban: dont you think that after all this time
The Cuban: there is still something there
The Cuban: how many guys can we both say that of

Flibby: Again, I didn't break up with you because I don't like you.
Flibby: Or because I don't enjoy your company.
Flibby: Or because I don't want to kiss you and hold you close.

The Cuban: i know this
The Cuban: so fuck it... lets just go with it and see what happens

Flibby: We did that once.
Flibby: I couldn't take it.

The Cuban: not really
The Cuban: sweetheart
The Cuban: i cant pretend to know how you feel
The Cuban: about that
The Cuban: but i just want to hold you
The Cuban: the funny thing is
The Cuban: that after friday night
The Cuban: i was like ... fine
The Cuban: at least i wasnt the only one

Flibby: Well, sweetie, I TOLD you that.

The Cuban: yes
The Cuban: and that meant a lot to me
The Cuban: more than youll ever know
The Cuban: the fact that 5 months later we are still having this discussion means something
The Cuban: you know what i think

Flibby: It means exactly what I said it means.

The Cuban: yes dear i know
The Cuban: but you know what i think
The Cuban: i think
The Cuban: you should come over tomorrow and watch movies with me
The Cuban: and just go with it

Flibby: :)
Flibby: I appreciate it.
Flibby: I don't think that's a good idea, though.

The Cuban: so then thats a no
The Cuban: ive never fought for anyone before
The Cuban: and ive never put myself out there like this before
The Cuban: and you know what
The Cuban: i risked it

Flibby: Yep.

The Cuban: so why dont you?

Flibby: I told you why.
Flibby: The best case scenario isn't all that great. And the worst case scenario just plain sucks.
Flibby: The risk is not warranted.

The Cuban: see thats where we disagree

Flibby: Like buying lotto tickets only with the odds stacked against winning.

The Cuban: but there is hope
The Cuban: and even if there was only a 10 percent chance this will work long term
The Cuban: i think its worth it
The Cuban: as far as pain
The Cuban: well
The Cuban: sweetie

Flibby: There isn't a 10% chance.

The Cuban: so why are you talking to me

Flibby: I told you why.

The Cuban: yes
The Cuban: both at odds

Flibby: Yes, I do have a conflict about it.

The Cuban: come tomorrow

Flibby: No, thank you.

The Cuban: then what is the point of me telling you when im going to miami

Flibby: Because up until this conversation I was really would have given it serious thought.

The Cuban: i see

Flibby: In order for me to consider all of this, I can't think about it.
Flibby: I can't give too much thought to the principles involved or the future out comes.
Flibby: In essence, I have to deceive myself and evade what I know to be true.
Flibby: If there's anything I think is a sin, that's it.
Flibby: But that's what I've been doing.

The Cuban: you can stop now

Flibby: Which is why I didn't want to get into this discussion in the first place.
Flibby: but now that I've had to lay it all out there, what can I do?
Flibby: I've said it out loud.
Flibby: The cat's out of the bag and every one knows there's an elephant in the room.

The Cuban: well Flibby
The Cuban: you have the dubious distincition of breaking my heart not once but twice

Flibby: Dubious, indeed.
Flibby: You're the first Christian I've dated seriously since I gave up the stuff over half a decade ago.

The Cuban: yes well
The Cuban: im just [The Cuban]

Flibby: That says a lot.
Flibby: I need to get to bed.
Flibby: g'nite