January 18, 2006
Self-made
I was reminded this weekend of how vital a sense of one's own personal efficacy is to survival and happiness.
A friend was, again/still, lamenting her romantic situation. That is to say, she is single. She is one of these people who is insufferable when she's single because she constantly talks about how unloved she is. During these times she rarely seems to reflect on how anxious and confused she is when dating someone -- which is a result both of her codependent tendencies and her poor choices.
Generally, I'm able to bite my tongue and keep a polite distance from discussing the matter with her at any depth, but at dinner the other night she crossed a line.
She said that she believes her codependency to be comparable to an unchosen characteristic such as sexuality. Specifically, she said that she compares it to being gay.
I started out gently with a cautious but (my best attempt at) warm tone trying to clarify her comparison and saying that surely she does not REALLY mean to make a direct comparison between the two, but that it merely seems to be so.
No, she insisted, the two characteristics are the same in the respect that they are unchosen.
After a few more progressively direct attempts, I lost my temper a bit and told her in so many words that her idea is idiotic and her need for a man in her life is not the same as being gay.
It was puzzling to her why I found her remark to be so offensive and I admittedly did not do a fantastic job of making the reasons clear to her.
By equating an unchosen characteristic, sexuality, with a chosen characteristic, the value one places on having a relationship, one reduces the whole of one's existence to a plodding sort of determinism. She was seated at a table of gay men and saying, "You know how I'm completely incompetent to deal with my emotions and reality? Well, I'm just like you in this way."
The attempted moral equivalency was absolutely shocking to me.
She readily admits that she is not aware of what is going on in her head. She conceeds that she is merely seeking pity. She believes that she is unable to think anything different from what she thinks. And, one can only conclude, that by bringing the topic up at dinner, she is looking for sanction from the rest of us.
This woman has managed to convince herself that she is unable to deal with reality. She openly scorns reason and rational thought, so her handicap doesn't come has a huge surprise. But she took it a step further and asked us to welcome her into the fold of people who have had difficulty with something they didn't choose about themselves.
She cannot see how she has chosen to be codependent!
Nathaniel Branden correctly defined self-esteem as consisting of two parts: self-worth and self-efficacy. A lack of a sense of being worthy of happiness will lead to a lack of a sense of being capable of achieving happiness and the reverse is also true.
A lack of self-esteem is usually never so clear as in the area of romance because romance requires that a person draw on the sum of their values to make their choices. People with low-self esteem very frequently wind up in horrible, torturous relationships and, surprisingly, they constantly pursue these relationships contrary to what they say about not wanting it.
Romance is an affirmation. In romance, we choose people who will help us in drawing our picture of the world. If you are a person who believes that reality is full of possibility and rewards effort with happiness, then you will likely find yourself drawn to others who similarly greet adventure and life with joyful anticipation. If you are a person who believes that you are incapable of achieving happiness or unworthy of happiness, you will seek partners that will, in some combination, make you unhappy or let you make them unhappy.
No one is born thinking of themselves in any particular way. Self-awareness, in fact, is not explicit in people until a certain point in childhood development.
As people grow our sense of self is in a state of constant change. That change is more rapid and subject to influence by particular events when we are younger. The concept of self follows the same path of development and formation as any other concept and it grows stronger as one gathers more percepts and we constantly perceive ourselves as we think and act in life.
It is not surprising that there are aspects of one's own psychology that one may imagine as innate, but they aren’t. And there may have been events in that woman's life that were beyond her control that lead to the formation of some of her ideas, so I can see why our friend might compare her codependent tendencies to an unchosen characteristic like sexuality, but the comparison is invalid.
A few basic observations can affirm that psychological characteristics, even something so fundamental as self-esteem, are not inborn. Consider how many times you've heard about traumatizing incidents that change a person's personality. Think about the process of forming habits -- good and bad -- and how not performing some habit or another actually does provide an emotional response.
This is because self-esteem is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think you are doomed to failure, you will fail. If you think you are fated for defeat, you will lose. If you think that you have the power and ability to overcome obstacles, you will find satisfaction in your successes.
To build self-esteem, one has to re-program one's subconscious so that the emotional responses one has to things are in line with what is good and rational. To accomplish this, one has to act consciously according to rational values. These actions will erode any wrong premises and ideas that may be held and build correct ideas in their place. Once rational premises are integrated, then one's emotions will respond to reality in line with rational values -- but not before.
In place of rational thought, this woman has substituted emotions, though. She expects her emotions to some how guide her to successful romantic relationships. Where she got the idea that emotions are anything but responses, I don't know. Even if she hasn't figured out that they are her brain's responses to comparing her values to reality, I would optimistically think that she'd have to be self-aware enough to see that they don't just come barrelling in out of the ether prior to any experience. But no. When she said, "I don't know what's going on inside of my head," she made it clear that she really does think that emotions occur spontaneously.
There are some people with emotions that occur spontaneously. They're crazy people. Crazy people have broken brains and they either need medication or some kind of neurosurgery that is impossible today.
If she really can't help being codependent, I asked, why do we continue to talk about it? Why is she bothering to ask for solutions or affirmation? If it is so, it is so, and agreement or disagreement will not change it and neither is there a solution. The answer, again, is that she just wants pity.
And she compares her state of psychological ineptitude to being gay. That is patently offensive to people everywhere and her specific choice of comparing it to my sexuality is an obvious ploy to draw out my sanction for her idea. I'll have none of it.
Update: If you're interested in Nathaniel Branden's discussion of self-esteem, I would recommend his book the Six Pillars of Self-Esteem. It's been a long time since I've read it, but I recall the first part of the book, which focuses on the nature of self-esteem, is very interesting. I think it was written before Branden got too far off the deep end, too, but as always, please assess its merits for yourself.
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1
Sounds like girl needs a prescription for a drug like Welbutrin.
Posted by: The Angry Fag at January 18, 2006 06:02 AM (53Ln+)
2
If you don't have to provide scientific evidence to your friend supporting your theory that being gay is inherently genetic, I don't see why she shouldn't expect you to believe everything she says about her alleged inherent genetic qualities, such as codependency. (I have heard there is evidence supporting a "gay gene," as I'm sure you have, and any gay person alive knows it is genetic, but you provided no more evidence for your non-gay friend than she did for independent you).
Also, where did you get your definition of a crazy person and the traits therein?
Posted by: James at January 18, 2006 02:02 PM (bWxvH)
3
James, our discussion, you will note, was not about what causes homosexuality. The discussion was about why she is a whining, codependent pity-monger. The burden of proof lies with her.
Further, even if that were the discussion and even if there were no evidence that homosexuality is biological in origin, it does not follow that I would have to accept her assertions about her codependency, which has origins that are sufficiently explained already.
For information about mental disorders try Google.
Posted by: Trey Givens at January 18, 2006 02:58 PM (xYfsS)
4
My mistake concerning her remarks on homosexuality. Your response was so tremendous that it's ranting emotive undertone overpowered her actual statement in my mind.
She wasn't comparing your homosexuality to a personality flaw that you continuously choose to exercise, like her codependency, which is apparently how you took it. She was saying that she has no control over her decisions. She didn't argue that sexuality isn't genetic, so what, exactly, did you find offensive about her statement as it concerns your sexuality?
I conclude that you're touchy about your sexuality. You bring it up many times in your post and it has nothing to do with what you're trying to argue.
On to what you're arguing. The burden of proof lies with whomever wishes to prove something: first her, then you. She provided no proof. Since you obviously wished to pursue the argument, you were then obligated to provide proof against her initial assertion.
However, I question your motive. If this behavior is common with her and it annoys you, why do you continue to speak to her? Or, why do you avoid telling her it annoys you? She doesn't sound very enjoyable to me, so I don't understand why you should care about her ability to deal with reality; rather, I don't see why you should argue against her ideas which prevent her from dealing with reality in order to make her a healthier, happier person.
Concerning your statement about Googling mental disorders, are you saying that your source for information is Google? You missed my point, which was: you don't provide sources for your arguments.
Posted by: James at January 18, 2006 04:52 PM (bWxvH)
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I must be in a good mood because I am rarely willing to repeat myself.
By equating an unchosen characteristic, sexuality, with a chosen characteristic, the value one places on having a relationship, one reduces the whole of one's existence to a plodding sort of determinism. She was seated at a table of gay men and saying, "You know how I'm completely incompetent to deal with my emotions and reality? Well, I'm just like you in this way."
This woman chose to make this particular comparison because she wanted us to relate to her. She chose "gay" because I'm gay -- as was everyone else at the table. Her comment was made in order to personally involve us in her pity party.
No one is contending the point that homosexuality is unchosen, so there is no burden of proof there. Since everyone agrees, there was no reason to go into it. You're just wrong on this point.
In contrast, my post provides a discussion of how we know that codependency is the result of chosen values, as did my portion of the discussion over the weekend.
This was my last interaction with her and the end of our acquaintence. What you should question isn't my motives, my values, or my emotions, but the amount of information you have. I haven't told you anything more than very surface information about my relationship with her. You're ignorant on this aspect of my life, so you'd do well to mind your own business.
And you missed my point about Googling about mental disorders: the information you requested is tangential to the point of this post and discussion and providing information that you requested would unnecessarily belabor a minor point. If that's the only point of interest to you in my post, go look it up.
I really don't think you read my post carefully enough. I admittedly did not do any extensive editing before posting it. I have no doubts that it could be made clearer and tights, but I don't believe the progression of points is that unclear. You've mischaracterized points I've made and the post as a whole and you've attempted to draw conclusions about which you have no information. Frankly, you're out of place on most of the points you've attempted to make. Stop being so presumptuous.
How about we talk about the nature of self-esteem and how it plays into romantic relationships since that is really what most of my post is about?
Posted by: Trey Givens at January 18, 2006 06:38 PM (xYfsS)
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I think I presented good arguments based on the facts I had. For example, your original post described the woman as a "friend," and you have since diminished your relationship with her to "acquaintance." Re-read what you wrote. Whatever you meant to convey, you obviously had a problem with her bringing up homosexuality. If she would have compared codependency to breathing, for example, the tone of your post would have been COMPLETELY different.
I don't know how to help you understand what I mean any clearer than I have. It's as if I have to spell out every single angle of my point before you understand. I specifically pointed out that she agreed with you: sexuality is genetic, so I don't know why you posted exactly that then negated my saying it. Furthermore, when I stated you are obligated to provide proof, I was referring to your idea that codependency is not inherent, not your idea that sexuality is.
Why shouldn't I question your motives, emotions and values when your post has EVERYTHING to do with them?
Your post is not cohesive nor very coherent. You make a lot of brazen statements on many different points, back nothing up, so what it amounts to is a lot of stream-of-thought noise. There is no point in commenting on that (where would I start?), so I commented on what was not, in effect, your opinion: an actual conversation. It actually took place, as opposed to, for example: "In romance, we choose people who will help us in drawing our picture of the world," which isn't easily proven, and is certainly not proven in your post. You would probably have to find several psychological studies, which you didn't. You backed it up with more statements of the like.
I don't believe you wish to discuss your posts with me when I write anything with which you disapprove. In reality, I agree with a lot of what you write. Would you rather I post something like: "Trey, you are so right. I see things exactly the same way. Codependency goes against human nature. Since every man controls exclusively his own body and mind, it is logically obvious he must depend solely upon himself"? I don't think that's interesting.
As to Googling, AGAIN, my problem wasn't with your treatment of the "minor" point of mental disorders. My problem is your lack of sources, and I used your comments on crazy people to illustrate that. I used another example two paragraphs up.
Also, stop calling me "pretentious." I am not, and I would rather you delete my comments and not reply at all than throw that remark again.
Posted by: James at January 18, 2006 08:13 PM (bWxvH)
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Her argument was ridiculous because she wasn't making one. She was looking for affirmation of her escape clause. "It's not my fault because..."
As you noted, she compared codependency with homosexuality because her audience was homosexual. She wasn't trying to say she was just like you; she wanted you to say you are just like her. She was looking for emotional validation and camaraderie.
Posted by: Jim at January 19, 2006 01:01 AM (oqu5j)
8
Read more closely.
I said she was a friend because I did honestly consider her among my circle of friends. It would be a lie not to call her that. But in my last comment I said this was the "emd of our acquaintance." That's not the same as saying we're acquaintences.
The problem is that although you've drawn conclusions not all of them are good because you're clearly lacking sufficient information to draw those conclusions.
And, yes, my reaction probably would have been different if she had chosen a different comparison because a different comparison would have indicated a different, more innocuous intent on her part. She chose sexuality because of her audience and refused to compare it to anything else when asked.
If you're looking for any sort of affirmation, I am somewhat sensitive about my sexuality. It is an aspect of my person that sets me apart and puts me at odds with a large part of the population. But although I'm conscious of it, I would not say I'm overly sensitive about it. As it turns out, the other people at the table were also offended by her remarks.
The reason you shouldn't question those things is because the post makes those things clear where relevant. Your continued questioning shows that you're missing the point either intentionally or inadvertantly. If you question my motives, what do you think my motives are?
Asking me to provide information about how I know about the nature of romance is more to the point of this post than your inquiries about insanity and about how my relationship with this woman has changed sinced the conversation. But I don't have to cite studies; I can cite reality and my experience therein. If you think that my statements aren't true, then citing counter-examples should be easy for you, right?
If you want to make a point about not providing sources, or if you want elaboration, why not ask, "Trey, how do you know XYZ?" Asking where I get a definition assumes I can't define things on my own. (It's particularly puzzling to make such a request when I haven't offered a definition of the term in question.)
Read again. I didn't call you pretentious. I said you were being presumptuous and that's what you're being when you start asserting things about my business about which you haven't sufficient knowledge.
Finally, I'll issue the same opportunity I give everyone: If you don't like what you read here, you can go read something else.
I'm assuming that you've bothered to read and comment this much because there is something redeeming in your mind about what you've found. If I give you the benefit of the doubt that you've failed to give me (see above remarks about you not having sufficient information and being presumptuous.) I might think that you are making your comments in hopes of helping me improve future posts. If that's your intent, your approach is very bad. Try again.
Posted by: Trey Givens at January 19, 2006 01:11 AM (xYfsS)
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Jim, you are up awfully early in the morning reading blogs!
James, I've updated the post to refer to one of Nathaniel Branden's books on Self-Esteem. He has another one about self-esteem and romance, but I haven't read it.
Posted by: Trey Givens at January 19, 2006 03:27 AM (gKBKR)
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Points taken. In a convoluted sort of way, I was giving my comments in an effort to help you improve your posts. I'll also say that I enjoy arguing, so sometimes I will press a point that isn't relevent to the issue at hand, or is, but I pursue that point impractically. That is my error. You call the same thing missing the point "intentionally," so I will agree.
For example, I know where to find reference for or have read sufficiently myself the topics you addressed in your last post; I know there is evidence to back you up. I am not especially knowledgeable, but I know enough to satisfy me for now. Since I didn't need the information myself and my motive then was to get you to cite your sources, I have to agree with you: why didn't I just ask you to cite your sources?
Concerning my comments on your sexuality and sensitivity toward it, I think they were valid. The tone of a writer should always be considered when making any other judgements about what he writes. Several factors will determine that tone, and I think a major one is his emotional state. You have said yourself that you get emotional easily, but even if you hadn't, you were obviously upset by your friend's remarks. So, I argue that you wouldn't have been so adament about the rest of your post if you would not have been so irritated that she pointed out you are gay.
This has nothing to do with your post, but I want to comment on it anyway. I am under the impression that gay people are progressively viewing their sexuality as NOT at odds with the rest of the population. However, I notice that older generations of gays tend to be more sensitive about being gay. I met a man, for example, who is still concerned about "Stonewall"; I am not, and I only vaguely know about it. So what do you think? Why do you consider yourself at odds with the population? You also have blue eyes, and most people don't. Perhaps you're left-handed. Is it your goal to NOT think of yourself as odd? If so, how do you plan to to transfor your way of thinking? Is it your goal for others not to think of you as odd?
I request that you write a post about it.
Posted by: James at January 19, 2006 09:49 AM (bWxvH)
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heh heh heh... I think if you read through my blog, you'll find that I get "emotional" about a host of topics. My sexuality is one of many topics about which I'm admittedly "sensitive."
I've actually been thinking about some of the questions you've asked. I may post on them when I think I have something relevant to say.
Posted by: Trey Givens at January 19, 2006 05:31 PM (xYfsS)
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January 07, 2006
Ignoring Bad Things
I've been pondering James' remarks to
my Rauschenberg post.
If you truly take as deep an offense as you proclaim, your only course of action is to ignore Rauschenberg, not fume over him or vomit on his work. You've determined he's not worth any more of your time, so why do you give it to him? I don't protest against Raschenberg because it would be a complete waste of my time. If there are people who admire his work they are people I also do not care to waste my time on trying to convince otherwise.
Somewhere back in time the mainstream of "High Art" got off track. At some point, the art being produced started to drift off course.
This assumes that at some point the better part of the art being produced was of a high quality both in terms of technical production and in aesthetic value overall. This is a highly debateable assumption.
In terms of technical production, the artists of the Rennaissance pioneered production values that are seldom seen today but are requisite in master works if accompanied by proper aesthetic values.
But in terms of aesthetic value, which includes the subject matter and themes of the work in addition to the technical execution, I'm not sure that there has been a period or major movement that is completely in line with what Ayn Rand called Romantic Realism. She defined this style as art that shows life as it could and should be.
The Rennaissance saw definite movement back to classical, rational, humanistic themes.
Anyway, if we assume that things were on the right track or at least moving in the right direction, there was clearly a major deviation from the path of righteousness to get to what we see lauded today, which consists of the Rauschenberg crap I commented on earlier.
(As an aside, I suspect that Art has actually been so corrupted that today there exists no primary mainstream movement in High Art production or appreciation. I'm just speculating, though.)
I think that the deviation started somewhere around the early to mid-19th century. The reason I say this is because it was during this period that the French Romantic period began to slow. Actually, I say this because it was then that Eugène Delacroix remarked, "Of which beauty will you speak? There are many: there are a thousand: there is one for every look, for every spirit, adapted to each taste, to each particular constitution."
This idea that beauty is completely subjective is very dangerous in art. Indeed, subjectivity in any field of philosophy is terrible.
During the Romantic period, many artists including Delacroix, were ignored by many simply because it was regarded as ugly.
In the Impressionist period that followed, artists sought to paint not the objects they saw, but the light around and on the objects. Some people ignored their work because it was regarded as messy and ugly.
The same reaction has probably been observed by pretty much every art movement, but I think it has been happening at an increasing rate since the Romantic period in Art.
What did ignoring offensive work achieve? Sure, the individuals who chose to ignore it lived their lives untroubled by it and those who liked it were free to gawk at it and buy it up.
The problem is that as the voice of opposition faded, the voice of support for the worst aesthetic offenses remained even if diminished.
I'm not saying that those who oppose putting hideous blobs of garbage on display as art have been silent. I am positive that throughout history, there have been people decrying bad art.
I think that James' comments to me are an attempt to be more helpful than anything. I'd like to think that he's really just saying that I ought not occupy my mind with silly things like Rauschenberg's white canvases, particularly if they're going to distress me so much.
As I have pondered an academic career as an art historian, it's important for me to note to my readers that Art is something that interests me more than some other topics. I suspect that I will get more involved in Art as time goes on and my career advances.
But I do want everyone to pay more attention to what passes for art.
When you see something hanging on the wall, look at it. Actually consider what it's showing you. What is it saying about the world? When you look at it, does it show you somewhere that you would like to live or does it show you some place you would dread?
Everywhere I go, I do this. I look at what people hang on their walls. I actually judge people a bit by what they put up on their walls and, as uncomfortable as it makes everyone, I like to ask them why they have it.
And I do have an emotional reaction to Art. James is correct on that count, too: my post was inspired by the raw anger I experienced at being confronted (again) by Rauschenberg's work. If I saw some disgusting bit of Rauschenberg's work, I would be incredulous, outraged, insulted, and generally bothered by it. Perhaps that's what he wanted in creating it, but giving him what he wants there is no injustice. It doesn't suddenly make it art. It doesn't make it worthy of purchase.
When I typed up my comments on Rauschenberg, I should have taken a more direct, purposeful approach to discussing his work and its aesthetic value. That way, no one would be mistaken about what's wrong with it and what I hope to accomplish by pointing it out. Not to mention the fact that the post would have been more effective to the ends I had in mind.
But I want to point out that merely ignoring bad ideas when one is aware of them is insufficient to thwart them. Ignoring bad art will not stop those people from making it.
When confronted with a work of art, every individual should identify what values it affirms or which ones they attack. What to do about it once this is decided is a moral question that requires another check with the individual's values.
If we ask 'how can we stop the production of this garbage?' the first thought that springs to mind is to not buy it. Don't pay these people.
I'm curious to know how many "artists" today actually support themselves on the sale of their work as opposed to being supported by government grants and subsidies. I'll bet it's not enough to warrant the amount of crap that's being made.
So, we also need to urge our political leaders to stop using our tax money to support this.
We can also campaign as intellectuals against it. This is where my blog comes in. I realize that most people who read my blog are already agree with me. I happen to know that some people who read this blog, however, aren't quite there. Sometimes, people who are completely against my ideas come by here.
I think James is right in that there are definitely times to ignore bad art and times to speak out loudly against it. I also think my blog is the perfect place for me to announce my disapproval.
So, James, thanks for the support and the comments. I think you're wrong, but I appreciate what I've made up as your intentions. If I throw a dinner party and you're invited, I promise, we won't talk about Rauschenberg at all. (Unless you bring it up and then I'll turn red in the face and launch into a diatribe, just for you.)
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1
If you brought up the topic of Rauschenberg with me, we would have a very short, agreeable conversation, depending on how much ranting our moods permitted.
If you wish to complain about bad art, your blog is definitely the place to do it based on your stated purpose (a place to throw down your random, everyday thoughts). As a campaign against bad art, however, your blog is not ideal. First, your readership is low. (And a such a campaign would not increase readership). Second, I do not think your readers are as diverse as you stated.
If you are really so passionate about good art (and not just the idea of destroying bad art), I have some ideas for you. However, since you are so adamant, let me ask you first: why do you want to get rid of bad art so badly? Is it because bad art represents moral corruption in people, and you do not wish to live around morally corrupt people? Is it because you really, REALLY enjoy good art, and there is not a great enough selection for you? Or is it because you are clinging to narrow esthetic ideals as an excuse to pick a fight with a group of people?
There is not point in my commenting further, and not much of a point in you giving it any more thought, unless you can answer that question.
Posted by: James at January 08, 2006 09:56 PM (bWxvH)
2
What makes you think I've misrepresented the diversity of my readership? I know individuals and have recieved comments from individuals who fall into each group that I've described. A large readership is not required for this to be the case. This is an extremely minor item so, what makes you think that things are not as I've stated?
I can answer your question and my post answers it in part. But I am questioning your motives at this point.
If you don't like what you're getting from this blog, don't read it. If you feel inspired to add something to the discussion of a particular post, feel free.
Posted by: Trey Givens at January 09, 2006 07:02 AM (uew91)
3
I'll answer your question from the last post first. At this point, I am looking for a 20-something's take on Ayn Rand's ideas, ideas sprung from hers, or similar ideas. I found you by accident through Google last month, and I have read also only a couple posts from your archive. I had no intention of actively commenting on your blog and indeed didn't expect such a response to my comment regarding how to deal with bad ideas. Although your post topics vary, I am only minimally interested in what colors you have chosen for the walls of your house. I am more interested in your less diluted, more abstract posts.
I think my motive now is obvious, but I'll state it: I wish to bounce ideas off you, or Diana Hsieh, or anyone whose response will give me something to think about.
So, I now ask you to answer my question. What is your motive for wiping out what you think is bad art?
Posted by: James at January 09, 2006 11:59 AM (bWxvH)
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Ah!
Yes, sadly, I have been QUITE remiss in my writing on serious topics. I hope to get back to more of that in the semi-near future, when things aren't quite so hectic.
As for why I want bad art destroyed, it's because it's BAD art.
It offends my aesthetic, and therefore moral values. When I see ugly art, I have the same reaction I have to a lie. It's terrible.
Destroying art is really an effect of a broader purpose, though. As you pointed out, it does hint at a void of virtue both in its creators and its supporters. I'd like to see them change their minds as well as see their horrible art removed from existence.
And, naturally, I would really love to see artists with the skill of Bernini and Michaelangelo producing works that portray rational values. I want to see them lauded in museums and in galleries. Artists like some of those shown over at the Cordair Gallery get far too little business in my opinion.
Posted by: Trey Givens at January 10, 2006 10:25 AM (uew91)
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